[00:00:00] Introduction 

[00:00:00] Rana Hussain: When I worked at a major football club here in Australia we had a wheelchair team and we discussed with them what it was like for them to come to our games. And we have a big stadium here called the Melbourne Cricket Ground. It's a beautiful stadium. It's huge seats, 100, 000 people. It's the jewel of our city, and one of the players said to me, look, I love going to the MCG, but I'm in a wheelchair, so I'm at half height and moving around the stadium, I'm constantly getting knocked or knocking someone else's beer out of their hands. You have to understand that I'm literally seeing it at half height. So if you get in a chair and sit in a chair and wheel through the stadium and see what I see. You'll see that like I'm not, it's not the great, it's not the best experience. I'm less likely to just come to a game of footy.

[00:00:54] This work is for every specialist and every kind of area of life to consider. It really kills me that DEI or inclusion or belonging or creating environments of thriving is seen as like a side piece of work that's separate. To me, it's if you're a doctor, how do you do the business of doing a doctor in an inclusive way? if you're a teacher, how do I do that in a way that makes people feel like they belong in my classroom? So it's on every single one of us to have these conversations and put this lens on the work that we do.

[00:01:33] Show Intro

[00:01:33] Sola DaSilva: Welcome to third space. I am your host. Sola DaSilva. I am an architect and storyteller. And third space is where we have meaningful conversations about architecture and wellbeing. Giving you the tools to design a life that works for you. I'm passionate about creating a world that is inclusive and full of beautiful spaces that truly reflect our humanity and inspire us to be our best selves. I'm so happy that you're listening. Let's get into it. 

[00:02:07] Meet Rana Hussain

[00:02:07] Sola DaSilva: My guest today is Rana Hussain. Rana is a DEI consultant and one of the most influential women of color in sports administration in Australia. So this episode comes to you from down under. As the founder of her organization, Good.Human, Rana is exceptional at helping organizations develop cultures that are inclusive and high performing places of belonging. As a mother to a strong minded nine-year-old who hates sports she knows how to deal with stubborn minds. And on today's show, we talk about belonging, inclusivity, and what that looks like in design in architecture, in the built environment. We're also gonna talk about sports and how sports opens doors to spaces and creates opportunity for connection. I can't wait for you to listen to this episode. Let's dive in.

[00:02:55] Rana Hussain: Thank you. I was just firstly like congratulations on the work that you are doing because it's incredible and it's so important. 

[00:03:06] Rana's Journey and Insights on Belonging

[00:03:06] Rana Hussain: When I entered sport, it was from a DEI perspective and community development perspective. And I often find myself now when I talk about creating environments of belonging and thriving for people, but it is in the detail, the broad principles, but actually the work is in getting into the kind of niche areas of what creates an environment interpersonally, but then, structure, the systems of the place and the processes, but also the built environment as well. And once you start going down those rabbit holes there's so much work you can do, and it takes people going, "okay, I'm going to do this bit," so it's really nice to hear you talk about you bringing that to this work, because I think it's so important. Actually, this work is for every specialist and every kind of area of life to consider.

[00:04:05] it's not, it really kills me that DEI or inclusion or belonging or creating environments of thriving is seen as like a side piece of work that's separate. To me, it's if you're a doctor, how do you do the business of doing a doctor in an inclusive way? if you're a teacher, how do I do that in a way that makes people feel like they belong in my classroom?

[00:04:29] So it's on every single one of us to have these conversations and put this lens on the work that we do. But very similarly, I came to this work because of my lived experience, I grew up post 9/11. I was an adolescent post-9/11 in Australia and even though 9/11 was a very American moment, it was a very global moment and as a young Muslim girl, I suddenly, although I grew up in Australia, suddenly felt that sense of fracture, like in a deep way, on a communal level, and it was really challenging for me, and it I think, was the kind of like the turning point for me of really focusing on what does it mean to belong somewhere? And what does it feel like? And what's the impact when you don't feel like you belong? And so in many and various ways, I started to consciously and unconsciously investigate that for myself.

[00:05:36] And that sort of took the form of a social work degree. I used to work with young kids at a primary school, in counselling, did a lot of volunteer work. And I also found myself working with sport, because I loved sport. I watched it. And I part watched it because it was fun and entertaining, and it was something that my family I think, found palatable.

[00:05:58] But I also lent into it because in Australia, sport is such a big part of our culture and it's one of the markers of, what we hold up as our national identity. And so it became a passport for me of moving through society and building connections with people. But sport was also very fraught for me. I played netball as a young child and going to training was not a fun thing. I loved training, but I, didn't love the kind of, relationships that I had there, there was a little bit of bullying and racism, at a young age, and definitely a sense of exclusion. 

[00:06:41] And that was repeated over and over for me in different ways. Plus sport was just not , in the era that I grew up, sport for women just wasn't, it was still becoming a thing that was, normalized, and then on top of that, I had a lot of cultural baggage around, when and where does a Muslim girl play sport and how and, there are a lot of rules in sport around uniform and what you can and can't wear, and if I played netball, but you have to wear a little skirt and that's just not something I was going to do, so you just stop playing the sport. Lots of experiences of exclusion.

[00:07:21] And when I started to work in sport, I realized a few things that if sport was such a big deal and kind of the thing that could cut through to people in their lounge rooms on their couch to the lay person, the average Australian, if sport could beam messages of inclusion and belonging and connecting with each other, I thought that's something that can actually shift culture, and have an impact. And I thought, I influence that in any way? I got a job in sport and, it just became my whole world, working with sporting organizations.

[00:07:59] Sola DaSilva: As a person of color, taking on that role as a consultant to teach people, to ask questions to push things, does that feel like an extra burden? Like, why do you have to be doing this work? 

[00:08:14] Rana Hussain: Yeah, definitely. There are days when I feel like that. I think that's where I've come to is I don't sit back and wait for people to have those realizations. And if I do, the world's not going to change. I think sometimes we need people to prompt us to shine a light on what we're missing. And, what I learned is that it's not always willful ignorance. It is just ignorance. And so until some of us say, "hey, this is the experience we're having and I need you to," if you think about it from a relationship point of view, and a psychological point of view, if you can't ask for what you need in a relationship, there's just, there's no way that you're going to actually be able to get it.

[00:09:08] And so I think about it in that way that if, there is an amount of work that, we all have to do to understand what our blind spots are and, wouldn't it be great if we knew how to do that. But for some people, they've just not had that realization. That's not being their life story. They've never had to actually consider that they have blind spots, let alone then sit with the discomfort of leaning into that. And so I think what I what I have done and what I am doing is moving away from the kind of straight up DEI work and just building people's capacity to self audit and to self reflect and say, yeah, what am I missing here? What don't I know? Do I actually talk to people who are different to me? And when I do, what's my capacity to hold that difference and be respectfully curious? 

[00:10:05] And so I think now it doesn't feel like a burden because I genuinely feel like that's the work. I think what's hard for me as a person of color, specifically on things like racism, and specifically as a woman on things like sexism, for people who aren't of color, they need to actually not hear it from someone like me, they need to hear it from someone like them because it's actually just going to be too much for them to hear the messaging. And I'm noticing that in the work that I do, that whenever I do any kind of anti-racism training, I really have to hold that so carefully. And actually I find when it is a white colleague, who's delivering those messages, it lands in a completely different way.

[00:10:51] And sometimes that really sucks because it would be great to be able to do that work without people feeling the discomfort of that. But I also really get it, when I think about, the work around violence against women or just sexism in general, men sometimes want to hear it from other men. And when another man says, yeah, this isn't okay, it's actually really powerful. That's where I feel the burden of this work. So I really, I, the place I like to play in is more, how do we become the kind of humans who are skilled at tuning into one another and then being able to deal with whatever comes our way after that.

[00:11:34] Defining Belonging and Inclusion

[00:11:34] Sola DaSilva: What does it mean to belong? If you could just define it, what does it mean to belong?

[00:11:39] Rana Hussain: It's such a good question. And there's, there's some definitions that center around acceptance having a shared story that is collectively written. So, not imposed, but there is a kind of collective understanding of our story together. There's the story of us. That feeling of that us, that collective has your back and you will be protected, and that you're willing to protect your community. It's the feeling of being able to exist with as fewer barriers between you and the rest of the world and interacting with the rest of the world. It's a feeling of safety, of being able to speak your mind without fear of kind of retribution. 

[00:12:31] It's not an existence without conflict. I think a lot of people think belonging and particular inclusion work means we all get along all the time and there's no conflict and it's rainbows and sunshines. And I'm very quick to say, no, that is not actually what this work would bring. This work would actually bring conflict because creating an environment where people feel like they belong, and can be themselves really means they then we'll speak their mind and say what they think. And that's what we want. But we don't want that in an unhealthy ways. We want that in ways that are going to be constructive for the group.

[00:13:08] So all of that is what belonging is. But to me, it's just, it's a feeling. And whenever I'm talking about this or training on this topic I ask people to think about one place where they feel like they belong. And immediately people can picture a place, hopefully, even if it's one place and they know the feeling. And then I think, okay, what are the components of that?

[00:13:33] And usually it's things like, they get me, they know who I am, I can be myself. I'm not on edge about anything really. And for me, the way I describe it is when you go home after a day of work and you put your comfy trackies on and you just go, "ah" you settle into your environment, that's what belonging feels like to me. That you're settled. And you're not carrying, any kind of load around that kind of needing to mask or armor up. You are who you are. So that's belonging to me, and there's things in different environments you can do to create that.

[00:14:15] Sola DaSilva: I think when people don't belong, there's no conversation. There's an action that's being done to them, like when somebody's picked up and I'm going to just use this example, locked up in a cell, they're othered instantly. So there is no equality. There is no balance in that exchange. And I feel when you said conflict, that's signifies to me a back and forth. But when somebody is being othered, there's a power dynamic and there's an imbalance that happens. Because you can argue and you know that argument or the conflict doesn't end the relationship. You're still part of that same community, but it's just a disagreement. 

[00:15:02] Rana Hussain: Totally. I couldn't agree more. And I think that's where people have an issue with language like inclusion, which sometimes I think is necessary, especially in a culture like ours in Australia, where there is a dominant culture and there's an element of inclusion that does need to just happen.

[00:15:22] But I think the arrival point that we hope for in group dynamics or environments is it's shared power and it's power with not, power over one over the other. And I think we often forget that because we also, when we talk about dismantling structures or restructuring or, unlearning things, people hear, I have to give away power to someone else who's then going to have power over me.

[00:15:52] And sometimes that is how it works. That's we set ourselves up for that. And we can see societally where that happens, where, a marginalized group, then, it has felt powerless, claims a particular amount of power, type of power and then exerts it over other people. And when I think about belonging and conflict, it is power with.

[00:16:13] And as you say, then it's that dialogue with each other where there isn't yet one over the other. I think if we can work towards that, that's always going to be a much healthier place. Having said that, that's really hard to do particularly in workplaces, because that's the context I keep thinking about this thing, because that's the work that I do. Workplaces will often think, okay well, if you walk us through this, we'll arrive at this point and we've done the work and we'll have created this environment of belonging. And it's like, no, I can set you up with the tools that you need to maintain this and keep doing the work and whatever is going on in your world is going to affect your culture.

[00:16:54] And so it's a living, breathing thing that has to be maintained and worked on constantly. I often say the leaders, you really need to be scanning your landscape to see where are the pockets of power and how does that power play out in your workforce and do people have power over others in unhealthy ways?

[00:17:14] There's necessary ways sometimes, hierarchy and the rest of it. But even in those situations, if you have a manager and a staff member, how does that relationship be a power with relationship rather than a power over? And yeah, I couldn't agree more that what we're talking about here is being in dialogue and on equal footing.

[00:17:34] And I think part of that is self determination and being able to give people as much agency as reasonable and possible in any given scenario.

[00:17:45] Sola DaSilva: Yeah, I love that. I love that. Okay. 

[00:17:51] Creating Inclusive Physical Spaces

[00:17:51] Sola DaSilva: how does belonging manifest in space?

[00:17:53] Rana Hussain: I just I'm so thrilled that you have me on. Thank you so much because it's such a specific and tangible thing to talk about because this, and I'm really mindful that so far it's been quite academic and high level and so I love the idea of what does it look like in a physical sense?

[00:18:12] And there's, there's really obvious things like, the things that, and I think the disability community and activists have done a power of work to educate a lot of us on physical spaces that necessarily are way more inclusive and can signal belonging. Things like wide door frames, ramps handles and bars for people to hold on to. There are really specific things like that, that create or give the message and literally give access to people. And you'll be surprised, and especially in sport, you'd be surprised how many of our physical environments just shut so many people out.

[00:18:54] When I worked at a major football club here in Australia we had a wheelchair team and we discussed with them what it was like for them to come to our games. And we have a big stadium here called the Melbourne Cricket Ground. It's a beautiful stadium. It's huge seats, 100, 000 people. It's the jewel of our city, and one of the players said to me, look, I love going to the MCG, but I'm in a wheelchair, so I'm at half height and moving around the stadium, I'm constantly getting knocked or knocking someone else's beer out of their hands. You have to understand that I'm literally seeing it at half height.

[00:19:33] So if you get in a chair and sit in a chair and wheel through the stadium and see what I see. You'll see that like I'm not, it's not the great, it's not the best experience. I'm less likely to just come to a game of footy. And so even just small things like that, teach you so much about what you can do to flip all of that.

[00:19:52] So the stuff like that, the other thing we talk about often is the symbolism. So how can you symbolically show people who are even just walking past your environment, your built environment, this is a place where they are welcome. And in Australia, one of the things that has become really common is to make sure that you have an Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander flag at your, workplace or, some kind of symbolism that shows people from that community that they are welcome and that it's going to be a safe place for them.

[00:20:27] But it also we know that when we have flags representation like that, it also tells other communities. is a place that's had this thinking, and that's doing this kind of thinking. So for, even for me as a Muslim woman, if I see Aboriginal Torres Strait Islander flag, if I see pride flags, I go, okay, this is an organization that's having conversations about inclusion.

[00:20:51] So they're more likely to lean in if I turn up. I expect them to be welcoming. And so you've signposting that to people. And it does wonders. So things like that, how do we symbolically show that we're for people, having language, different language welcome signage or signage in different languages showing that we actually understand that not everybody, particularly in Australia, particularly in Melbourne, where I'm from, we're very multicultural community.

[00:21:23] So being able to signal that. To say, yes, we understand that English isn't everybody's first language. Please come and be part of our community. So there's really simple things like that are really obvious, that are really easy to do. But once you get past all of that, then I think you have to really understand who the environment is for, who you're trying to curate it for and understand their needs.

[00:21:46] And so it's going to look different depending on who you're, whether it's an audience, whether it's a community, who you're trying to serve. I think for me environments where I feel like give me that sense of belonging is usually because it is specific to me, and what I might need from that environment.

[00:22:06] So for me, that's often a place somewhere where I could pray because I need a quiet space. So I can take myself off to a quiet space. So it's not just one big hall where everybody's all in and there's no options. Like for me, a place where people feel like they belong is a place where there are different options. There may be a sensory room, there may be a quiet room, there may be somewhere where you can go off and just have a minute to yourself. 

[00:22:33] And I think, in answering your question, it's like that mindset that we care about the people that are going to walk through these doors or walk through this environment and what their needs might be on any given day.

[00:22:47]  For me, it's also about connection, because so much of feeling like you belong is being able to connect with one another. So how do we set that environment up? What does seating look like? Is it facing each other? Is it circular? Or do we expect people to connect side by side in rows? That's not super conducive to me for like actual connection. And there's a reason why so many of our traditional cultures do things in circles. And so I think for me, whenever we create that kind of in the round conversational setting that creates environments that just naturally suit connection.

[00:23:27] And then, really simple things like I was in a cafe the other day and was sitting on like a bench high chair, like high stool, a barstool basically. And I'm a shorter person and I just found myself thinking, I just wish there was like somewhere I could perch my feet. I just need a place to perch my feet and then I would feel really comfortable sitting here. I will stay here for hours. Because I was so uncomfortable, I just had my coffee and left and I wanted to sit and work. And I just was like, ah, I can't do it. I'm not going to stay here. This doesn't feel good for me. So even little things like that, I think in the design and the way we design environments keeps people there and makes them go, "Oh, okay." I always go back to that "oh" I can settle in and relax feeling. And so any environment that can give you that feeling is going to be a place where you feel like you belong.

[00:24:28] Sola DaSilva: So, like, I hear flexibility, adaptability, options, being able to make it suit your style and what you need at that time.

[00:24:37] Rana Hussain: I think there's also from a design point of view, that idea of can you design structures or environments for the eight year old or the three year old and the 80 year old? What would it look like to design a playground where the toddler can enjoy it, but also the structures are in a style or a design where the grandparent can then be there and enjoy the physical environment as well. Is a bench also a playground and is a playground also a comfortable bench? I don't have the answers to that, but I think that's the kind of mindset. that creates these environments where we all want to spend time together.

[00:25:21] Sola DaSilva: I think a lot of people actually do want to engage more. 

[00:25:24] Overcoming Fear and Embracing Change

[00:25:24] Sola DaSilva: So I want to talk about fear and awkwardness. There is a discomfort that you have to push through to make connection with people. Especially People being afraid to say the wrong thing, do the wrong thing, how can they push past that? 

[00:25:39] Rana Hussain: Often in the workplaces I go to, they're generally people who are wanting to change or support the work of change and being better, but there's incredible fear of getting it wrong. And so I often think, firstly, those of us who have power in acknowledging that need to, and I, see myself as one of those people that, if I can make it clear that it's okay to make mistakes, then I will, and I need to. And so I'll often when I deliver training or workshops or work with the workplace, particularly when I'm coaching a leader, I will illuminate the ways in which I stuff up all the time and have in the past and have had to learn or unlearn things because it just takes the temperature down.

[00:26:29] And if people feel any kind of shame or fear you're going to freeze. You're not going to actually take any step or lean into anyone. You're actually going to withdraw if anything. So it's actually the antithesis of the work that I want to do. And for those of us who want to see the world be a better place, it is the exact opposite of the environment we want to create.

[00:26:52] So I would say that for those of us who are driving change, and we are change makers and we are pushing, we have to bring people along with us. And yeah, that can be annoying. And there are days when you say, can you just do what I'm asking you to do. But, we can't, entertain that. I don't think. We have to actually give people space to learn and make mistakes and try, and that has to be okay.

[00:27:17] And what we can assess on is their genuine attempt and their ability to kind of turn up again. And to those of us who make the mistakes, and we all make mistakes, it's not like some of us are right and some of us are wrong, we all do it. I would say that if you feel that fear of getting it wrong, you have to accept that's the feeling and you have to try anyway. But often so much of what we do stops because we're scared. And that is actually the last thing that we need to do is not try because we're too scared of getting it wrong. So I would say that's bravery. Choose bravery because bravery isn't the absence of that fear, it's just acknowledging 'okay, I am really terrified. I have no idea how to do this, but I'm going to do it anyway. I'm going to do my best to work out how to do it. I'm going to try my hardest. And then knowing that you will stuff up. It's just how it happens, how you learn and that's actually a gift and that you go again because the test is in the going again.

[00:28:27] I worked with a prominent journalist here in Australia who had a really big fail publicly, said really awful things, was roundly canceled for it, although he wasn't canceled cause he's still a prominent journalist. 

[00:28:41] Sola DaSilva: I think I know who you're talking about. about

[00:28:43] Rana Hussain: And I reached out to him and said, look, yeah, you really stuffed up. This is not okay. And I'm here. I would happily help. I'm happy to help you understand why if you don't understand why that wasn't okay, happy to help you understand why. But the thing I don't want to say you do is not try and be better because you're scared now to try again. That is the worst thing that can happen because you will go back into a newsroom, you will go back into this environment, and it will be on you to actually show people that what trying looks like, and you're going to get it wrong and people will call you out again, but you need to keep trying. I will be devastated if what I see is you just come back around and keep going and you don't, you say, okay, that's going to be too hard, I'm not going to wade into any of that.

[00:29:39] Sola DaSilva: Yeah.

[00:29:39] Rana Hussain: And so for me, that's what it is. It's, the trying it's the effort. It's the doing the work and the research and, but doing the work on yourself and just turning up whether people are watching or not. it's because you've chosen to be a better person. I think that's, the key for me.

[00:29:59] Sola DaSilva: I think this is a perfect place to end it. 

[00:30:02] Sports Trivia Fun

[00:30:02] Sola DaSilva: I got some sports trivia questions cause I thought I would quiz you.

[00:30:06] Rana Hussain: Oh no. 

[00:30:08] Sola DaSilva: I got this off the internet so they might be very hard or very I have no idea. Okay. 

[00:30:13] Rana Hussain: This is terrifying. I love it though.

[00:30:15] Sola DaSilva: Okay. 

[00:30:16] How many times has Australia hosted the Olympics?

[00:30:21] Rana Hussain: How many times? Oh, I want to say two, and we're gonna have our third... in 2032 Brisbane.

[00:30:31] Sola DaSilva: Two is correct. 

[00:30:32] Okay. Where's the largest sports stadium in Australia?

[00:30:37] Rana Hussain: That's gotta be the MCG. Northern Cricket Ground?

[00:30:42] Sola DaSilva: Yep. Okay. Most questions are Australia based, but have some American ones so you know. 

[00:30:48] Rana Hussain: Okay.

[00:30:49] Sola DaSilva: Which famous former Australian cricketer went out to bat with an aluminum bat?

[00:30:56] Rana Hussain: Oh, I should know this. Oh god, no, it's not coming to me. 

[00:31:03] Sola DaSilva: Okay, it's Dennis Lilly.

[00:31:05] Rana Hussain: Oh yeah, of course. Yeah. Oh, embarrassing. No, that was, I should have 

[00:31:14] Sola DaSilva: Okay.

[00:31:14] Rana Hussain: I should have known that, yeah.

[00:31:17] Sola DaSilva: Who was the first Aboriginal woman to be selected to represent Australia in any sport?

[00:31:22] Rana Hussain: I'm thinking Evonne Goolagong? 

[00:31:25] Sola DaSilva: Her first name starts with an F.

[00:31:27] Rana Hussain: Oh, it's not Fern, is it?

[00:31:32] Sola DaSilva: Faith Thomas.

[00:31:33] Rana Hussain: Yes! Faith Thomas! Oh my god! Cricket!

[00:31:37] Sola DaSilva: So what is your favorite sport, actually?

[00:31:40] Rana Hussain: It's not obvious from the way I answered those questions. It is cricket AFL, which is Australian Rules Football. I'm really embarrassed. I didn't get Aunty Faith Thomas far out. She she was an absolute legend. And I don't think many Australians would actually know the answer to that.

[00:32:05] Sola DaSilva: Okay. What is the most popular sport in New South Wales and Queensland?

[00:32:12] Rana Hussain: Rugby

[00:32:13] Sola DaSilva: Yeah. What is Canada's national sport?

[00:32:18] Rana Hussain: not ice hockey?

[00:32:20] Sola DaSilva: Yeah.

[00:32:20] Rana Hussain: Okay, God, why do I know more about Canada? 

[00:32:23] Sola DaSilva: Okay, so I have 10 questions, so we're almost through. 

[00:32:27] Rana Hussain: Okay. 

[00:32:28] Sola DaSilva: Who holds the world record for the fastest time in the 100 meter dash?

[00:32:36] Rana Hussain: World records? Usain Bolt? 

[00:32:38] Sola DaSilva: Yes, it is. 

[00:32:39] Rana Hussain: I saw Noah Lyles run the 100 meters in Paris this year. I remember thinking that is so fast and he still hasn't broken Usain's record. So it just blew my mind.

[00:32:51] Sola DaSilva: Which country has won the most FIFA World Cup titles?

[00:32:55] Rana Hussain: Woah. Brazil? 

[00:32:58] Sola DaSilva: You got most of them right so far. 

[00:33:00] Rana Hussain: I got the non-Australian ones right. 

[00:33:03] Sola DaSilva: What two sports have been played on the surface of the moon.

[00:33:07] Rana Hussain: I feel like maybe the Americans threw a football.

[00:33:12] Sola DaSilva: Golf. One of them is golf. The other is javelin.

[00:33:18] Rana Hussain: How on earth? I was just, as I said that I was like, how could you throw anything on the moon without gravity?

[00:33:26] Sola DaSilva: I'm gonna look this up.

[00:33:27] Rana Hussain: that's A great fact.

[00:33:31] Sola DaSilva: Final question. Which of these teams are not genuine Australian sporting sides? So I'm gonna list four teams: Matildas, Boomers, Spiders, and Jillaroos.

[00:33:52] Rana Hussain: Oh, that's, very easy for me.

[00:33:55] Sola DaSilva: Okay, which one is it?

[00:33:57] Rana Hussain: The spiders, although I'm amazed that we don't have a for the spiders. I'm wondering, we have so many spiders in this country. I'm so surprised.

[00:34:08] Sola DaSilva: Okay, that was fun.

[00:34:10] Rana Hussain: That was really fun. Thank you for having me. 

[00:34:12] Sola DaSilva: I've learned a lot more about Australia in time that I was researching for this interview.

[00:34:22] Rana Hussain: I'm so glad. Thank you so much. It's been wonderful.

[00:34:25] Final Thoughts and Third Space

[00:34:25] Sola DaSilva: I'm only going to ask you one more question, which is the question I ask every guest, what's your third space? 

[00:34:30] Rana Hussain: I wish it was a physical space cause I'm desperate for one. I would have to say it's a WhatsApp group where it's a group of friends where I just feel like I can be the silliest version of myself, and the smartest version myself, and the dumbest version of myself, and the most scared version of myself. It's a group of women who are sport football fans. And shout out to the Outer Sanctum podcast. I just, I live life with them daily, sending messages memes, but it's just a space where I exhale a lot of the time. And I am often very messy. And we all live really busy, fast paced lives. We live in all different places, our schedules can never align, there's 10 of us, but that, chat group is, I don't know what I would do without it. So for me, that's definitely my third space.

[00:35:42] Sola DaSilva: Thank you for listening to this episode of Third Space. Be sure to like, subscribe, and share. I'd love to hear your thoughts. Send me emails, DMs. Adios, friends. Until next time.